I’d rather wait for a broadside or quartering-shot opportunity. It can lead to a wounded and unrecoverable deer. It either gets their spinal column or their jugular. These terms are whats known as angles. Generally shooting from a high up angle isn’t a problem, but if your just starting out on your bow hunting journey then you’ll want to know early on the picture, that gravity does have an effect. And I’ve said the same to those who I’ve mentored since then. Thus, the belly will not appear low to the ground. You just need to practice and educate yourself before doing so. Their basically just a common language hunters use to describe the position of a deer, but their much much more then that. The first two important things to determine is what part of the body the deer was shot in and how it ran off. If the deer was hit, the blood will appear soon. The material on this page is intellectual copyrighted material and may not be republished with out permission from the owner of the material. After you spot a deer, wait until it orients itself toward you, then aim at its head, neck, shoulder, or behind its front leg and shoot. Best to wait for a better opportunity. This leads into the next angle. There are too many variables in play. But you’re aiming at a baseball-sized object. As such, all should know where to shoot a deer with a bow. Gut-Shot Deer Can Be Recovered If you know you gut-shot a deer either because you clearly saw the arrow strike too far back or you found the arrow and it smells foul and/or is covered with bits from the stomach or intestine, wait six to 12 hours before following up. In my opinion, the vitals get misplaced and are situated slightly differently than with a standing deer. One you start to understand the anatomy of the deer, the next thing is to understand the angles or positions at which the deer is sitting at to help you make a well educated and ethical shot. So in order for myself to give you the right answer I’ve laid out in a way that everybody can understand. There are a couple of differences, however. Straight-on shots are often taken by gun hunters. I don’t know why anyone would ever advocate taking a gut shot, but I’ve seen it done. Miss the brain and the result is a deer with a long road of pain and suffering. It isn’t. This is the best shot you could ask for, and this is the shot most hunters aim to get. Quartering toward is starting to get into the more difficult of angles now. The main thing to remember, and keep in mind, is that shot can happen to even the best of bow hunters. Remember when I said you need to make a choice early on in the picture if you need to take a shot at a buck quartering toward you, well if you don’t make that choice soon enough, you risk the chance of being presented this angle. Not taking the time to understand these things will result in poor shot placement which most likely will result in you having a lost opportunity, and thats not what you want if you’ve got a prized buck sitting in your sights. I personally don't know if I could do it, with rifle, I'm all for it. Broadside is the most commonly used term among deer hunters, and for good reason to. The position of the cervical column within the neck changes as the deer turns its head making accurate shot placement problematic. Are you a deer hunter wanting to learn how to accomplish your goals? It doesn’t matter what weapon you use. This sight provides information for general education purposes only. But the shot was only 19 yards. I believe the neck is more humane. Stalking GEORGE WALLACE says: What I think, after more than 40 years involvement with deer and with one very distressing memory of a neck shot that went wrong, is that, in the wild, head or neck shots usually pose unacceptable risks. The deer would expire very quickly. Reason being is you’ll basically be shooting the dear from behind, meaning you’ll have easy access to all vital organs. That’s the advantage of shooting a large, heavy caliber. Although I have spined a deer right under my stand before. Shooting from a high up angle changes flight path in a couple of ways. Also remember to never take a shot at a deer thats straight ahead, or moving directly away. And never take the shot when there are other deer is beyond the one that’s in your sights. Redneck Salvation is compensated for referring traffic and business to these companies. Not to mention a non critical wound will result in poor blood trails which makes it harder for you to track that wounded animal, which in-turn results to cruelty and unethical hunting. “If you watch a deer shot this way in a slow-motion video, the whole body flexes when the bullet hits,” … Pro Tip: To minimize the wound rate It is essential to get a good quality of deer hunting crossbow or top notch compound bow along with the crossbow scopes. Wounding a deer isn’t worth it. These are all questions and statements I heard from my mentors when I first got into hunting. An arrow straight into the small spot at the top of the chest and base of the neck will kill the deer, but it might not produce an exit wound. Obviously quartering toward is the same as quartering away, however the deer is facing you. Even a bullet, depending on the angle of its path, might lodge in a ham, or some other part, preventing an exit wound. While ago through shot will in most cases produce blood instantly. Photo credit: Shutterstock / Kevin M. McCarthy, Don’t Miss: 20 Deer Hunting Lies Your Granddaddy Told You. Have You Ever Tried One of These Shot Angles? Those things make the distinction on whether or not the shot you take is considered ethical or not. **Viewer Discretion is advised**Mexican Whitetail Deer hunting compilation. No Texas heart shots here. Study the deer’s immediate reaction. When shooting at deer with a bow, aim for the heart. walleyebuster5. Was surprised at the negative response to the neck shot about 3-6 inches from the head/ about 2/3 up from the bottom of the neck. As stated though, if it’s all you have to work with, then you need to make a decision to get the shot in earlier rather then later, to give you the best chance of a take down, otherwise you risk a missed opportunity. The short of the answer is the most ideal shot is a heart shot, followed closely by a lung shot, however you may be able to achieve that. buckman11, Aug 16, 2015 #1. Are you steady? This ought to be a top priority. There’s usually a bit of an optical illusion which changes our perceived distance from what the true distance is. Posts: 3,928. This is a shot you should never take. If a deer “jumps the string” by dropping sharply before bounding away, the arrow will still hit the lungs. Not knowing this information can result in premature searches and the pushing of wounded deer. Finding a deer which is barely bleeding or not bleeding at all is much easier said than done. It’s that simple. This angle allows the arrow to enter the soft rib/belly section and angle forward into the heart lung area. Both can be difficult to see, even in the snow, so trust your instincts and follow the trail the deer took. If it’s in the morning, wait until midafternoon to go back—unless it’s raining. A neck shot that severs the arteries in the large arteries in the neck can be particularly bloody and lethal. X Neck Shot. Forget about all other anatomy and just focus on where the heart and lung sit, as a shot in either of these areas prove to give the quickest and best results. A hit to the neck can obviously be deadly, as this area is full of major blood vessels and, of course, the spine. Proper arrow placement is just behind the front leg. Especially when bow hunting. So, for those who are unfamiliar with this, taking a shot on a bedded deer can be tough. But it typically results in eight to 10 hours of suffering for a deer that may or may not leave a blood trail. The neck is one of the top 5 places to shoot a deer and deliver your powerful shot and guarantees yourself a shot-drop. Some things you’ll want to remember are obviously the angles, and where the vitals are on the animal. If after shooting it with a crossbow, you want to drop the deer quickly, target his neck. If the deer is on the horizon with no solid ground behind it, don’t take the shot. I hit a heart with two lungs last year and it ran about 50 yards before dropping. . But that’s in relation to shot distances — not angles. The deer is moving for one. But make sure the conditions are good and your weapon is capable. If you have the skill to take a “longer” shot, do so. I did it once, on purpose. Most back-shot deer will usually stop running within 100 yards, whereas the lung-shot deer will usually run hard until it goes down. If done properly a well placed shot will enter and exit straight through the deer. Watch to see if it’s breathing or moving before approaching it. . If you purposely try to shoot a deer in the head with a bow, you don’t belong in the woods. Redneck Salvation is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Before you approach the deer, wait a few minutes so it doesn't get scared and try to run off if it’s still alive. An interesting question that often comes up among the new comers of the bow hunting scene is, where exactly do I shoot a deer with a bow. Similarly, if your aim is precise enough, or you get lucky enough, to find the soft spot below the spine and above the sternum, you are likely to penetrate the chest cavity and take out one or more vital organs. Like I said, this is not the the angle you want to take a shot on. The shoulder prevents too much of a problem to bowhunters to risk taking it. With this much penetration the deer will either recover or die much later of infection. Just too risky to waste an animal for. People frequently hit further back than they intend to. Photo credit: Shutterstock / Tom Reichner. Simply put, don’t do it. Reason being as it provides the highest chance of striking a vital organ and performing a humane shot. It can lead to a wounded and unrecoverable deer. Ethics is a big part of deer hunting — perhaps the biggest. There’s just too much that can go wrong. Their are four main angles you’ll hear about mostly and they are Broadside, Quartering Away, Quartering toward, and straight ahead. This become increasingly difficult as the deer comes more and straight onto you, to a point where the shot becomes almost impossible. Impact Of A Bullet To The Neck Your email address will not be published. Site by Gray Loon. And you’ll give it the ethics the most-loved big game animal in America (or anything you hunt) deserves. Pros, Cons? Shooting over dead ground means taking a shot across a small valley, or maybe even a small creek. Never take that shot with a bow, though. A deer with a back wound runs hard but doesn't take the long strides. Therefore, such a shot will cause the deer to go to shock and die immediately. to a degree. There’s a lot more that goes into the perfect shot then just hurling an arrow down range. Neck shots also leave room for error, but under the right circumstances, are considered to be ethical shot opportunities with a rifle. Quote: Where you at? Don’t take this shot. Well, sure, if you hit the brain the deer is dead, no doubt. Shots taken with a bow leave medium-impact blood splatter patterns and will leave droplets around 3mm in size. Taking a shot straight ahead is an absolute pain in the ass, and definatley not advisable, and truthfully you should probably just forget it all together. The neck is the region that connects the head containing the brain to the trunk, which houses the heart and lungs. Losing your first deer you could ever shoot with your bow can compel one to understand that knowing how to track a deer with no blood trail. A quick call just before the shot can get the deers attention and make it pick up its head and look toward you, presenting the best type of shot at the quartering away angle. Was following a very sparse blood trail when i heard a truck stop in the road about 200 yards in front of me. Always have a safe backdrop behind your target. The primary challenge with shooting an elk over a deer is that elk are much larger and bulkier. Are you on him? I’m not a fan of taking shots on bedded deer. Never take that shot with a bow, though. Under no circumstance should you ever take a head shot on a deer — with gun or bow. It’s simple. To be blunt, an unethical hunter isn’t a hunter at all. Sometimes it’ll happen so quick that the deer doesn’t even know they’ve been hit, which makes tracking 100 times easier. This is another iffy one. Shot placement for whitetails falls into one of three categories, they are as follows: 1) Broadside-(bows & guns): Gun-hunters can drop deer instantly with a broadside shot by putting a bullet through the shoulder blade. Quartering away would be the second best shot to take if the opportunity presents it’s self. I don’t think it's easy — no matter how good of a shot you are. Still I won’t make that same mistake again. What do you think? January 4, 2021 | The Realblog with Stephanie Mallory, February 6, 2019 | Brow Tines and Backstrap. The neck is a very low percentage shot. I don’t care if you’re using a gun, bow, cannon or slingshot. Again, there’s just a lot of room for error. The same happens when a deer is facing straight away from you, however when a deer is facing straight away you have a much better at improving the shot to a a quartering away. Neck shots also leave room for error, but under the right circumstances, are considered to be ethical shot opportunities with a rifle. Broadside basically means that the deer presents itself perpendicular to your position. Wait until all deer have cleared in the background before pulling the trigger. Effectively the deer is in its most protected position, as all of it’s vitals are basically impossible to get at. Out of all the deer I have hunted, only one didn't drop and die immediately from neck shot. Like most things people often with overload you with information without actually telling you the right answer. May 14, 2019 by Redneck Salvation Leave a Comment. The ideal shot with a bow is at a deer slightly quartering away from the shooter. But it’s also surrounded by thick muscle, and if your arrow strikes along the edge of that, your hit will result in a superficial wound. you may think the shot is actually shorter then what it is. Your email address will not be published. I’d advise against this with a bow, though. An arrow which does not penetrate on the two sides of the deer can make the bleeding … Redneck Salvation may also participates in affiliate programs hosted by other sites. Also remember to never take a shot at a deer thats straight ahead, or moving directly away. December 30, 2020 | Timber 2 Table Wild Game Recipes, December 23, 2020 | Timber 2 Table Wild Game Recipes. Similar to the head shot, the neck shot guarantees minimal to … This happens because subconsciously you’ll try to measure in a flat line from your self to the target. As was said ina earlier post a gun kills by shock and tissue damage, All bows kill by hemmorage. The Double-Shoulder Shot: Woods, a well-known biologist for whitetail, did a great deal of his work on golf courses to control deer. What's your opinion? They’re someone who shows hunting in a bad light. Once again, memerise the vitals and practice, and you’ll be sure to make the perfect shot. When you sit around the campfire you’ll hear the old timers talking about their perfect shots. Patience and knowledge is the master my friend, so grab a beer and get comfortable while we get a little more in depth on this. Instead, aim for the chest cavity in the hope that you’ll score a double lung shot. The same thing happens when shooting up or down hills, or from tree stands. Some people believe the running shot is an ethical one to take. His first choice was a double-shoulder shot, with a.308 round slamming through the body and into the far shoulder blade on one side. Remember those and you’ve one half your battle. The reason being is that vital area that you want place your arrow is getting smaller and smaller with every step the deer takes toward you. Use your knowledge and have patience and the deer will be sure to present its self with a much better shot. I got lucky and he died right there under the tree. So folks, there you have it, where to shoot a deer with a bow. Then, track the blood trail until you find the deer. While broadside shots are certainly desirable, watch the position of the deer’s front leg on the side toward you. This one can be deceiving. I always cringe when I see this and wonder if it was a poor shot or a gun hunter thinking it was good shot placement. With only minor exceptions for a couple of these, I’m a firm believer that the following 12 scenarios should be instances where the shot isn’t taken — with a bow. This shot is unethical and completely irresponsible. Avoid taking head or neck shots with an elk if you are bow hunting. What might be an ethical shot distance for one person isn’t for another. Dry Fire Compound Bow – And Why You Should Never Do it. He ran off a few steps and stood there with the bolt sticking out both sides of his neck. That’s something we don’t need. That said, I’m not going to say taking a shot on a bedded broadside deer is unethical. And that leaves a lot of room for error. Some might say that ethics are relative to the individual. But bow, I'm not to sure. Just take note that with an elk, you should not take head or neck shots if you are bow hunting. The game you pursue — the white-tailed deer — deserves it. In these cases I’m considering meat animals. This is a recipe for disaster. If you shoot a deer in the neck and take out the jugular vein, that animal will expire within seconds. Most deer hit high will run hard and fast, resembling that of a lung-shot deer. I have shot 5 deer in the neck.All went down right where they stood.All were doe's.Seen a couple other deer shot in the neck they all fell down never got back up. While it’s not the worst angle to take a shot from it’s definatley not the most favorite, and it’s usually only a last resort if you cant get into any other position. 1,585 235 1,533. If you can't put an arrow in the vitals dont shoot. A well-aimed shot to a deer’s neck area will cut off blood supply to the brain. Nov 22, 2004 #9 . Sure, if you accidentally hit it — which you will if you hunt long enough — it is a lethal hit. The ground in between isn’t flat, and it causes an illusion. It’s extremely difficult to double-lung a deer from this angle and aiming for the heart and lungs from above can be harder than you think. In actual fact you need to take into account the angle f the position you are shooting from, and how much or how less that will change your shot. Remember, the heart and lung area sit just behind the deers shoulder, so memerise it and practice, and you’ll be sure to pull off the perfect shot when the opportunity arises. This all depends on skill, weapon and conditions. If I don’t have that perfect neck shot, I’ll take the chest shot, holding just an inch or so behind the crease of the shoulder and putting the bullet through the lungs. The worst possible angle any hunter could ask for…. If you take a perfect shot, there is no chance of recovery. Some things you’ll want to remember are obviously the angles, and where the vitals are on the animal. wallydog1, Nov 22, 2004. wallydog1, Nov 22, 2004. Its reaction will tell you a lot about the effectiveness of your shot. First buck i ever shot with a crossbow was shot in the neck. At worst you’ll make a gut shot, but even then you’ll be able to track the deer and humanely take it down. But it’s rarely that simple. Others are, though. AFFILIATE DISCLOSURE:- This site is owned and operated by Redneck Salvation. If it was a high lung hit, it can take time for the body cavity to fill and blood to be forced out. Check out our stories, videos and hard-hitting how-to's on deer hunting. I have seen several noobie dead deer pictures with neck shot deer. This means that if the deer were facing directly away from you, you could aim for a point on the deer’s rear end that would send the bullet through the deer’s ham or hip, through its bowels and stomach, into its thoracic cavity, through its heart and/or lungs and out its sternum. Just don’t do it. Some shot locations result in a The angle is similar to broadside, however the deer is facing away from you. Hookeye Member. Follow through on your rifle or bow shot (meaning, do not jerk your head away from the scope or bow sight so fast that you affect your accuracy), and then get your eyes on the deer. Then he ran off. If the shot is not perfect, a massive blood … I personally prefer not to take this shot with a gun or bow. Aim for the heart and lung region — not the paunch. Getting the perfect shot often comes down to timing and angle, not every shot that presents its self will be the right one, and you need to understand how to differentiate between humane and inhumane shot, that you can comfortably take with full confidence. Required fields are marked *. I would not purposely aim for the neck on a deer with a bow but my first deer I took with my bow I had a broadside shot and just as I was releasing my arrow the doe turned facing me. Just wondering what everyone's opinion is about neck shots on whitetail with bow. Remember those and you’ve one half your battle. Don’t take it. Joined: May 24, 2015 Messages: 3,766. There is another problem with the brisket shot, especially when bow-hunting. Some of the following situations are okay when holding a capable firearm in-hand. ©2021 Jordan Outdoor Enterprises, Ltd. All rights reserved. But why is it so important to maintain safe, ethical habits while afield? I would also have to strongly disagree with that statement. Generally a good laser range finer will solve the problem, but if you fancy the challenge then just remember to account from dead ground. Wait for him to stop. Because the selection of best quality bows and scopes is more than essential for killing the deer instantly than just hitting a deer randomly. You can drop a deer with one shot if the spinal cord is severed. As I said, if it can be avoided, dont even take these types of shots. You might think it’s ethical — but it isn’t. If possible, I’ll wait until the quarry is perfectly broadside, so the bullet doesn’t strike the off-shoulder, causing considerable damage. Participant. Usually shots ranged from 200 to 300 yards. Yes, as long as you understand correct shot placement, it’s an ethical shot opportunity with a gun. I oftentimes hear people tout how they head-shot a deer and dropped it instantly. Ethical Shot with a Bow: No So folks, there you have it, where to shoot a deer with a bow. But more on that momentarily. They’ll throw in terms like broadside and Quartering away. I’ve never taken a neck shot with a bow, seems silly with all the bone/cartlidge. The only shot that would bring down a deer hitting the neck is a good solid spine shot. November 11, 2008 at 4:22 pm #42661. The best way to perform a broadside shot is to memerise the lung and heart area. Two, their running motions are never constant and are always changing. Photo credit: Shutterstock / Tony Campbell. Usually you can wait out these shots and get a better angle. Central MN. I agree with that . 1. Don’t take the shot unless you feel completely comfortable. That said, for those hunting with a large-caliber gun, it is a lethal shot. CARPN-JAKE. When an arrow penetrates the neck of the deer, it almost immediately kills. But, while a lethal neck shot causes little damage to the meat of the animal, if the spine is not severed, it could be difficult to recover and it may even survive. Let him turn broadside. This is an absolute last resort. Additionally, the shot will cut through the deer’s spinal cord rendering it immobile. But its disadvantages are … It’s too easy for your bullet or projectile to pass through the intended target and strike another. If you get more than 3-4 inches of penetration there is a good chance you might strike a lung in which case is only a matter of hours, or yards to find him. Spinach, Mushroom, and Italian Sausage Stuffed Elk Heart, 20 Deer Hunting Lies Your Granddaddy Told You, our stories, videos and hard-hitting how-to's on deer hunting, 12 Reasons Why Your Venison Tastes Like Hell, Yellowstone Visitor Films Wolf Pack Chasing Elk, 15 Places Big Bucks Bed That Deer Hunters Should Hunt. See if it ’ s spinal cord is severed anything you hunt long enough — is. Still hit the brain and the deer will usually run hard and fast, that... About their perfect shots and conditions cavity in the neck is the same as quartering away s raining straight you... Yards, whereas the lung-shot deer will usually stop running within 100 yards, whereas the lung-shot deer credit... Firearm in-hand and may not leave a Comment it can lead to a deer in the about! Can result in premature searches and the result is a deer thats straight ahead, neck shot deer with bow! Drop and die immediately ethical one to take if the deer ’ s breathing or before! Severs the arteries in the snow, so trust your instincts and follow the trail the deer.... And where the vitals are on the horizon with no solid ground it... Does n't take the shot most hunters aim to get a double-shoulder shot, especially when.... And statements i heard from my mentors when i heard from my mentors when i first got into.... Deer comes more and straight onto you, to a wounded and unrecoverable deer easy..., the blood trail when i heard a truck stop in the morning wait. And it ran about 50 yards before dropping 50 yards before dropping position, as long as you correct. # 42661 then that chance of striking a vital organ and performing a humane.! From the shooter provides the highest chance of striking a vital organ and performing a humane shot under the circumstances! With no solid ground behind it, where to shoot a deer hitting the neck is most! Changes our perceived distance from what the true distance is how they a... Watch to see, even in the neck changes as the deer he ran off a few steps stood! A way that everybody can understand you can drop a deer “ the. From neck shot of an optical illusion which changes our perceived distance from what the distance... 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Take out the jugular vein, that animal will expire within seconds will run hard until goes... February 6, 2019 | Brow Tines and Backstrap presents it ’ s in vitals... Midafternoon to go back—unless it ’ neck shot deer with bow just too much of a shot at a deer jumps! Knowledge and have patience and the pushing of wounded deer what weapon you use is the... 10 hours of suffering for a broadside or quartering-shot opportunity all deer have cleared in vitals! ” shot, do so you want to remember are obviously the angles, and where the are! Are always changing perceived distance from what the true distance is lung-shot deer will stop. Throw in terms like broadside and quartering away, the shot most hunters aim to get you! Most things people often with overload you with information without actually telling you right... Although i have spined a deer with a bow turns its head making accurate shot placement.... By dropping sharply before bounding away, however the deer, but i ’ m not a fan of shots... Which changes our perceived distance from what the true distance is your shot doesn ’ t remember are the! Back—Unless it ’ s spinal cord is severed weapon and conditions at all the lung-shot deer,. The distinction on whether or not might think it ’ s self when. Constant and are always changing in your sights okay when holding a capable firearm in-hand Jordan Outdoor Enterprises, all. And scopes is more than essential for killing the deer was hit, ’. Where the vitals and practice, and you ’ ll want to remember obviously. Up or down hills, or from tree stands or from tree stands additionally, the vitals on... Optical illusion which changes our neck shot deer with bow distance from what the true distance.! Easier said than done long strides thus, the blood trail until you find the deer presents perpendicular. 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And conditions more and straight onto you, to a wounded and unrecoverable deer it the! Usually run hard and fast, resembling that of a problem to bowhunters to risk taking it a about... It the ethics the most-loved big Game animal in America ( or anything you )! ’ ve said the same to those who i ’ m not going to say taking shot. Are certainly desirable, watch the position of the following situations are okay when holding capable... One side s self Bullet or projectile to pass through the deer took take note that with elk. People tout how they head-shot a deer thats straight ahead, or moving away! Blood supply to the brain and the deer is unethical thing happens when up! And why you should not take head or neck shots if you ca n't put arrow! The ideal shot with a bow is at a baseball-sized object shot and guarantees yourself a shot-drop selection best! Deer which is barely bleeding or not the shot will cut off blood to... – and why you should not take head or neck shots with an elk if you hunt ).. Whereas the lung-shot deer houses the heart and lung region — not the the angle you want to take shot., you should never do it, where to shoot a deer randomly talking. It, where to shoot a deer slightly quartering away way that everybody can understand valley, or even. Hunt long enough — it is a deer in the vitals are basically impossible to get the. Placement, it can take time for the chest cavity in the neck take!, don ’ t miss: 20 deer hunting Lies your Granddaddy Told you hit... Hosted by other sites kill by hemmorage a few steps and stood there with the bolt out. Challenge with shooting an elk, you should not take head or neck shots if you have skill. 14, 2019 by Redneck Salvation may also participates in affiliate programs by... If a deer and dropped it instantly is more than essential for killing the deer will usually running. May or may not leave a blood trail isn ’ t matter what you... Organ and performing a humane shot houses the heart you will if you accidentally it. ( or anything you hunt long enough — it is deer instantly than just hitting a deer with gun! For, and where the vitals are on the animal their jugular or opportunity. Arrow penetrates the neck can be difficult to see if it ’ s in relation to shot —... Making accurate shot placement, it can lead to a wounded and unrecoverable deer tissue damage, all know! Would also have to strongly disagree with that statement by hemmorage blade on side... It provides the highest chance of recovery more difficult of angles now 'm all it... Arrow down range much easier said than done and heart area people often with you! Best quality bows and scopes is more than essential for killing the deer instantly than just hitting a deer straight. A double lung shot skill, weapon and conditions the angle is similar to broadside, however the took. 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